Quite honestly, Writers' Talk is an experiment.
The idea is the result of many hours of online messaging and numerous e-mails with O'Reilly authors about our ongoing projects. During these "discussions," I began to feel that valuable thoughts and precious top-of-mind comments were being tossed out the window never to been seen again.
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I hate waste. And even more, I hate to waste a good idea.
So I thought, "What if I invite our writers to join me for an online chat on a specific topic, save the chat, then publish it for others to see?" At the time it sounded like a good idea.
So, I invited Alan Graham and Mike Beam to test this promising format with an informal discussion about our views on Mac OS X. What you'll read is pretty much what we said at the time. At the end of the article is our Talk Back feature. Tell us your thoughts, and in particular, if you think we should continue with this experiment.
Now, on to the discussion ...
You have just entered room "OS X."
OReillyMac: Welcome to our first installment of "Writers' Talk." Today we'll be chatting with two O'Reilly Network writers: Mike Beam, the author of "Programming With Cocoa," and Alan Graham, who has just debuted his series of articles exploring Aqua. Good to have you both here!
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alanosx: Thanks. Glad to be here.
beamOSX: Thanks Derrick, same here.
OReillyMac: So let's get started ...
OReillyMac: First topic: The tech media has pretty much taken the stance that Mac OS X shows potential, but that it's not ready for primetime -- especially for non-developer types. I'd like to start with you Alan. Do you share that view?
alanosx: Depends...
alanosx: If you need third party hardware support...
alanosx: it is obvious that OS X isn't ready.
alanosx: But the drivers will come...
alanosx: The real issue is whether or not Classic can run your apps.
OReillyMac: Well, can't Classic run all of the existing apps?
alanosx: I've been testing a variety of software in Classic and found it to be quite responsive and relatively stable.
alanosx: As stable as 9.1 anyway.
OReillyMac: So Classic is different than OS 9?
alanosx: It seems to be. For example, in my own use of Outlook Express...
alanosx: It has difficulty connecting to news servers. doesn't mean everyone will have the same trouble.
OReillyMac: That's interesting ...
alanosx: If you rely heavily on OS 9 applications...
alanosx: you could wait...but why?
alanosx: It probably won't cost you any more to buy OS X now than 6 months from now. Why not get your feet wet? The drivers will come.
OReillyMac: Mike, what have you seen in this area? with Classic?
beamOSX: For me Classic has been working great.
beamOSX: I find it to be much more stable than 9.1 alone
alanosx: I agree.
beamOSX: but that may be due to the fact that I never run IE in Classic, which of course i do in 9.1
OReillyMac: Do you know how it's different than 9?
beamOSX: Different from 9...
beamOSX: let's see...
beamOSX: From what I've read it's not that much different at all in the eyes of the user
beamOSX: you run your apps in Classic just like you know how to
beamOSX: Sure, there are still a few glitches here and there--a lot due to the different graphics systems at play between OS X (Quartz) and Classic (Quickdraw) -- but nothing major in my opinion
OReillyMac: OK, here's a question for both of you. How much time are you spending in Classic vs OS X right now?
beamOSX: I would say its about equal in my case...
OReillyMac: Alan?
alanosx: Almost none. With the exception of occasional work in Photoshop, LiveMotion and Dreamweaver...only about 10% of my total time.
beamOSX: I'm impressed
alanosx: I've forced myself to rely on it./..
alanosx: dig into it...
alanosx: live it.
OReillyMac: As a result, have you come up the curve faster, you think?
alanosx: Absolutely.
alanosx: I've been using it about five months now...
alanosx: and there was a stretch in the beginning where I went back to OS 9 for 3 weeks...
alanosx: but I forced myself to return...
beamOSX: That's the way Beta went for me as well
alanosx: and since then...I've actually become enamoured of it in a way... I actually hate OS 9 now.
alanosx: I feel like going from a Mercedes to a Yugo.
OReillyMac: Why did you go back?
alanosx: Well... I was working under beta... and I was frustrated in using Classic... it wasn't as stable as the current version...
alanosx: and I found certain applications like LiveMotion and Dreamweaver weren't reliable.
alanosx: I needed them.
alanosx: but then...
alanosx: I felt in order to become confortable with X... I had to do what I did when I bought my first Mac...
alanosx: and that was to dive in.
OReillyMac: And of course those apps will be available soon under OS X
alanosx: Hopefully soon... I'm so excited to use Photoshop with protective memory!
OReillyMac: Me too! Ok ... here's another ...
alanosx: three words for OS X...stability stability stability.
beamOSX: I completely agree with that
OReillyMac: That's a nice transition ... OK, next question: Both of you have spent plenty of time under the hood of Mac OS X -- I'm wondering ... do you have to be a Unix developer to make heads or tails of this OS?
OReillyMac: Mike?
beamOSX: I would say not
OReillyMac: Tell us ...
beamOSX: Apple has done an amazing job of keeping the the UNIX side of OS X well hidden from the average user's experience in X
beamOSX: it is an incredibly functional operating system...
beamOSX: Apple has made so many UNIX services available to the user in the System Prefs, which is amazing
beamOSX: Users really do benefit from what UNIX has to offer, packaged in the intuitive GUI of Mac OS X and Aqua
OReillyMac: Can you give me an example?
beamOSX: Turn on Apache with one click...
beamOSX: turn on ftp with one click...
beamOSX: although the average user only needs know them as web serving and file sharing...
OReillyMac: web server on your desktop?
beamOSX: That's right...
beamOSX: for the Mac user it looks just like Web Sharing in OS 9, except the engine under the hood is orders of magnitude more powerful and functional
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OReillyMac: So, then the flip side ...
OReillyMac: Will Unix users be satisfied with this version of BSD?
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beamOSX: I think so
beamOSX: from what i've read in discussions the UNIX community seems to VERY pleased with it
beamOSX: i even see some positive things said about it on Slashdot!
OReillyMac: I know the BSD guys feel they are getting the acknowledgement that they deserve ...
alanosx: Ah... but will Unix users want to buy Mac hardware?
OReillyMac: Good point.
beamOSX: It sounds like many of them have become enamoured with the Powerbook G4
beamOSX: maybe so, but a good point nonetheless
OReillyMac: There's an interesting story brewing ...
beamOSX: do tell...
OReillyMac: about the Darwin release for Intel
beamOSX: yeah, I've heard about that
OReillyMac: Hang on, I'll get the URL
OReillyMac: http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/user/view/wlg/235
alanosx: Most users don't know Unix or Linux from Primus and they don't care.
OReillyMac: This could change everything ...
alanosx: Most users don't need to see it, don't want to see it, touch it, use it...and thanks to an excellent GUi by Apple, they never have to. Aqua may be a big departure from their old GUI...but it isn't a big departure from their trademark.
alanosx: ease of use. I am still marvelling at little details in OS X that seem simple but are so powerful.
beamOSX: I agree
beamOSX: I really miss the dock when i go back to 9
OReillyMac: Me too, but the point I want to make is ...
OReillyMac: Even though developers LOVE the titanium G4 ... (Heck, who doesn't?)
OReillyMac: Many say that as long as they have to use Mac hardware ...
OReillyMac: Mac OS X will remain a niche OS
alanosx: I think this will be the case.
OReillyMac: But with the Darwin release on Intel ...
alanosx: except possibly in the enterprise community.
OReillyMac: I've never seen such a thing in the Mac community
beamOSX: You mean an Intel release of part of the flagship OS?
alanosx: The value for many Unix users is the terminal window... the sense of total control... you see that in the way many people still build their own machines.
OReillyMac: Here's a quote from Chris Coleman ...
OReillyMac: "Although the Darwin project is guided by Apple and used as the core of their new operating system, it is an open source project. Work has been underway by the open source community since release 1.0 to make Darwin available for the Intel platform. Darwin project leaders at Apple have recognized this effort and created an official binary installer for the Intel platform."
alanosx: I don't think it will happen... remember when Apple licensed their OS... it cannibalized their marketshare.
alanosx: Happening to Palm now.
OReillyMac: Yeah, but ...
OReillyMac: Here's another quote ...
OReillyMac: "The release includes a binary installer for PowerPC, as well as for certain x86-compatible configurations
beamOSX: There would have to be a fundamental shift in the core values of Apple for them to release OS X for Intel.
beamOSX: the environment isn't there now (or anytime soon) for that shift
OReillyMac: I'm not going to second-guess Apple ...
alanosx: I agree... and I don't see it in Jobs long term strategy.
OReillyMac: But once you open the "open source" box ...
alanosx: They are a strange...and wonderful animal.
OReillyMac: OK ...
OReillyMac: Here's another one
beamOSX: But that's just for Darwin--not the juicy stuff that users who will increase Apple's marketshare dramatically want
beamOSX: sorry, a little late on that one
OReillyMac: No problem! :-)
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OReillyMac: What advice do you guys have for those out there who are sitting on the bubble trying to decide to switch or not to Mac OS X? Is there a pros/cons checklist?
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beamOSX: It's hard to say--it depends on what your needs are
alanosx: Buy now... try it... if it doesn't support hardware you need... keep it on the drive... and wait.
beamOSX: I think a home user whose livelihood doesn't depend on things that only work in 9...
beamOSX: would benefit from the switch
beamOSX: i agree with Alan
alanosx: I think another issue is $$$.
alanosx: UP THE RAM!
beamOSX: i think there are real tangible benefits to OS X that often get overlooked
OReillyMac: How much RAM?
beamOSX: as much as you can afford!
beamOSX: (maybe we shouldn't print that)
OReillyMac: LOL!
alanosx: Well... I would suggest more than 128MB... but then again I am running an iBook with 128 and have had no problems.
beamOSX: yeah, I've got 320 on my iBook
alanosx: I think there is very little value in waiting.
alanosx: So if it doesn't work for you now...
alanosx: it will in six months... at least begin to learn it now. Classic seems to work better than OS 9.
alanosx: if OS 9 crashes the system you lose everything. If Classic crashes, OS X still runs. No need to restart your computer, just launch Classic again. stability, stability, stability.
beamOSX: If only Apple would let people know more directly that updates don't cost you anything (especially for those coming from wintel where a "Service Pack" costs as much as the original OS, or whatever barbarism they endure)
beamOSX: seems like people are thinking "but won't I have to pay more for it in the fall" or something like that
OReillyMac: In all fairness though, it's more for power users at this point, right?
alanosx: I don't know...
beamOSX: I think Power Users and those who do e-mail and Internet
OReillyMac: It will never be free. I can tell you that.
beamOSX: the updates
beamOSX: 10 -> 10.1
beamOSX: these updates have always been free, and they will be pretty meaty updates in X
alanosx: I really think this comes down to hardware. without those drivers....what is the point?
alanosx: Classic is stable... it is fast... and it runs in OS X.
OReillyMac: Well the drivers are going to be there
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alanosx: This all sounds like the PPC switch 6-7 years ago.
OReillyMac: Remember USB 2 years ago?
beamOSX: yeah, but there are plenty of people out there who don't have many peripherals. I didn't have hardware problems until I got a CD burner the other day.
alanosx: Let me say this...
alanosx: Apple has been doing this for 20 years...they know their customers...and they understand technology...
beamOSX: yes!
alanosx: they forced us to switch to PPC...but gave us the emulator...
alanosx: anyone want to go back?
OReillyMac: Not me...
alanosx: Who isn't better off for switching...
beamOSX: nor I...
OReillyMac: I don't even want to go back to pre-USB
OReillyMac: or Firewire
alanosx: Apple has a way of saying...time to move on...come along or stay behind.
alanosx: They have ALWAYS been right!
OReillyMac: Floppy drive!
alanosx: I don't miss it.
alanosx: RIP
beamOSX: Hah, floppy drives!
OReillyMac: I know, but sometimes it's tough love
alanosx: I'll say this... Jobs and Apple have guts.
beamOSX: the powerbook g4 is nothing but a 20GB floppy disk with a display, keyboard and a whole lot of power!
OReillyMac: And a great case!
alanosx: It takes guts to stare the computing community in the face... and say... time to go.
alanosx: Oh...
alanosx: One thing I would like to touch on in this discussion...
OReillyMac: Go for it
alanosx: is a few things that we think make OS X great.
beamOSX: yeah, I was hoping we'd get to that
OReillyMac: My next question!
OReillyMac: Alan, then Mike
beamOSX: okay
alanosx: well... actually take Mike first... getting a word...
OReillyMac: Mike, then Alan
beamOSX: okay
beamOSX: let's see...
beamOSX: The dock is really starting to grow on me
beamOSX: I find it to be incredibly functional and useful, and much better than what we had in 9 (which was just about nothing compared to the dock)
beamOSX: I like that windows minimize and get the hell off your screen with a simple command-M (shame on AOL IM & Acrobat for going against the grain here!). I like that my apps hide with command-H...
beamOSX: Eye Candy or not, I like my OS to look good
beamOSX: And with all the functionality that OS X provides as is...
beamOSX: there is still the capability to dive into its guts...
beamOSX: with the terminal...
beamOSX: with the dev tools...
beamOSX: It's something I have always wanted to be able to do on my Mac. When I feel like I've explored everything on the surface, I can pull back the skin and explore a seemingly endless terrain
beamOSX: OS X is incredibly stable...
beamOSX: incredibly functional...
beamOSX: and very powerful...
beamOSX: this thing has a whole lot of potential
OReillyMac: Those are great Mike. I couldn't agree more. One question before going to Alan's list.
beamOSX: and I don't mean "this fall we'll have drivers; this summer it'll be faster" potential
OReillyMac: Sorry!
beamOSX: I mean "ten years from now we can't possibly imagine what will be the hot thing, but OS X will handle it like a champ" potential!
beamOSX: no problem!
beamOSX: I think that's all for me :-)
OReillyMac: Does your iBook wake up from sleep instantly?
alanosx: I would buy OS X just for Sleep
beamOSX: There is about a second between opening the lid and moving the cursor, but everything is on the screen right when I open up
beamOSX: at anyrate, it beats the pants off of OS 9, and it's nothing to sneeze at
beamOSX: If you're a laptop user, get X
beamOSX: one more thing
alanosx: Agree!
beamOSX: I love the new networking set up
beamOSX: being able to have multiple, prioritized, networking ports in one location... I come home from work where I'm wired to the wall, open my iBook and it picks up my Airport immediately...
beamOSX: VERY nice
beamOSX: I'm done now
beamOSX: :-)
OReillyMac: OK, Alan, I know you have a favorite thing or two up your sleeve too.
OReillyMac: (Thanks Mike!)
alanosx: well... networking... multihoming... I have three networks in my house and I don't have to restart to switch...
alanosx: OS X know what is there... and I can switch on the fly.
alanosx: wherever you go... there you are.
alanosx: also...
alanosx: I am glad Apple is trying to kill off the Desktop.
beamOSX: YES!
beamOSX: I whole heartedly agree!
alanosx: I say good riddance... I love the new navigation... really using the Finder for once!
alanosx: The ability to scroll view... the navigation rocks...
alanosx: also...
alanosx: I rarely have to restart after an install... unless it changes the OS which is rare.
alanosx: In five months now...
alanosx: one system crash.
OReillyMac: Hey that's nice ...
alanosx: I see some big things coming too...
alanosx: notice how closely tied iTools and iDisk are to OS X.
alanosx: the line between the net and the computer is getting blurred....
beamOSX: yeah, I never used itools/idisk before OS X
alanosx: This OS is amazingly customizable... a hackers wet dream...
alanosx: coming to the end of my list... but...
alanosx: the system prefs are so much better than storing everything in a folder in the system.
alanosx: This new prefs interface is far superior than a drop menu.
beamOSX: I agree
alanosx: lastly...
alanosx: The attention to detail... you know... Apple has always been mocked for their GUI... why...
alanosx: because many tech people felt if it looks easy to use and is easy to use...
alanosx: it is a toy...
alanosx: but the level of sophistication required to make a machine work this well... is staggering...
alanosx: and OS 9 did it well...
alanosx: OS X... once you get to know it....
alanosx: leaves it in the dust!
alanosx: The attention to detail may seem silly...
alanosx: but live the OS for four or five months... and you'll laugh at yourself for not switching sooner.
alanosx: done.
beamOSX: It's a shame more people can't appreciate Apple's attention to detail--in hardware and software. I've always thought that the Apple's attention to detail adds immensely to the user experience, in a subtle way. The details make everything more solid--makes me feel more confident about my computer.
OReillyMac: Gentlemen ...
OReillyMac: Thanks so much for dropping by ...
alanosx: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
beamOSX: Its been fun!
OReillyMac: Ok, then it's a wrap!
Derrick Story is the digital media evangelist for O'Reilly. His current book is The Digital Photography Companion. You can follow him on Twitter or visit www.thedigitalstory.com.
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